Episodes
Monday Oct 31, 2022
Monday Oct 31, 2022
For our latest season of the Media Voices Podcast, kindly sponsored by Poool, we’ll be publishing ten episodes exploring the biggest trends of 2022 and how they affect publishers; from subscriptions and membership to advertising, platforms, emerging technology and more. Our sixth episode looks at the world of podcasting, from how publishers are refocusing strategies on engaging superfans to the growing popularity of video podcasts.
Many publishers were enticed into podcasting by the promise of high listener numbers and the opportunity to grow their audience outside of the usual channels. While the latter proved true, the year has proved to be something of a reality check for those seeking millions of avid listeners and subsequent ad revenue riches.
That's no bad thing. What it has led to is a realisation that podcasts are best used to serve the superfans. Monetisation and growth strategies have evolved to match these new aims, whether that be high-value sponsorship packages for small B2B podcasts, or shows used as a member-only benefit.
Another surprising trend this year has been the rise in popularity of podcast consumption via YouTube. From simple audio exports with just a logo on to full studio filming of podcasts being recorded, the platform is used by 58% of people in the US to consume podcasts. This has put pressure on publishers to look at video options for their shows, which can be a complex and potentially costly endeavour.
Although the podcast format is an old one, there is still room for change and improvement, most notably in discovery. Despite the best efforts of the big platforms like Spotify and Apple, and smaller apps like GoodPods, it is still difficult for listeners to connect with shows that they might potentially enjoy. This is an area still ripe for innovation over the next few years.
To discuss 2022's biggest podcast trends we're joined this week by Naomi Mellor, producer and host of multiple podcasts including Smashing The Ceiling, and founder of The Skylark Collective and the International Women’s Podcast Awards.
This topic will be one of the chapters we explore in detail as part of our Media Moments 2022 report, launching on November 30th. Find out more and pre-register here to receive the report.
This season of Media Voices is sponsored by Poool, the Membership and Subscription Suite used by over 120 publishers from around the world. The team behind Poool are industry experts who have put everything they know into the product, ready to respond to your ‘how’ of launching & developing a reader revenue strategy.
Monday Oct 24, 2022
Newsletters are finally growing up: Media Moments 2022
Monday Oct 24, 2022
Monday Oct 24, 2022
For our latest season of the Media Voices Podcast, kindly sponsored by Poool, we’re be publishing ten episodes exploring the biggest trends of 2022 and how they affect publishers; from subscriptions and membership to advertising, platforms, emerging technology and more. Our fifth episode explores the year in newsletter trends, from worldwide readership to how creators are driving publisher strategies.
One of the oldest digital delivery systems of all has continued to dominate industry headlines in 2022 as publishers rethink the way they work with email newsletters. Email-first news publishers have continued to go from strength to strength, with Axios and Industry Dive both acquired this year for significant sums. As overwhelm and news avoidance has grown, email newsletters have been seen as a solution to the firehose of content available online, as Reuters noted in this year's Digital News Report.
The trend of journalists leaving outlets to go solo has definitely peaked, with fewer making the move than anticipated. Stability, and the realities of making a living from just a newsletter have stemmed the tide of people taking it from a side hustle to a career. But publishers have responded by finding ways to support talented staff, with Forbes and The Atlantic both having made notable efforts to bring on board dedicated newsletter writers.
That's not to say it's been all plain sailing. Facebook (Meta) has binned Bulletin - its Substack competitor - after just over a year. The industry has also been struggling with Apple's Mail Privacy Protection Update, which has made measuring email open rates particularly challenging. This in turn is forcing innovation, and we're likely to see a substantial evolution of both metrics and email advertising over the coming years as publishers seek to bring the premium ad experiences of their sites and apps to their newsletters.
Overall, there seems to be an acknowledgement that newsletters have been a long-underserved medium that can actually be incredibly effective for publishers. As the hype has faded, there's a 'more realistic attitude' in place about the format and the business that can be built around it.
Joining us this episode to discuss the biggest newsletter trends of 2022 is Mark Stenberg, Senior Media Reporter at AdWeek in New York. He's reported on some of the biggest newsletter-related media stories of the year, and also has his own newsletter Medialyte.
This topic will be one of the chapters we explore in detail as part of our Media Moments 2022 report, launching on November 30th. Find out more and pre-register here to receive the report.
This season of Media Voices is sponsored by Poool, the Membership and Subscription Suite used by over 120 publishers from around the world. The team behind Poool are industry experts who have put everything they know into the product, ready to respond to your ‘how’ of launching & developing a reader revenue strategy.
Monday Oct 17, 2022
Monday Oct 17, 2022
For our latest season of the Media Voices Podcast, kindly sponsored by Poool, we’re be publishing ten episodes exploring the biggest trends of 2022 and how they affect publishers; from subscriptions and membership to advertising, platforms, emerging technology and more. Our fourth episode looks at how publishers with subscription and membership schemes are handling increasing pressure on consumer budgets, and subscription trends going into 2023 and beyond.
There has been a great deal of talk this year about reaching 'peak subscription'. Subscriber numbers at Netflix, Amazon and Disney+ fell in the first quarter of 2022 as increasing economic pressures forced difficult choices on households. Publishers are beginning to see the effects of this too. The International News Media Association's Subscription Benchmarking Service of 125 international news brands has noticed a recent spike in subscription cancellations, with the past few quarters seeing cancellations go up 34% compared to Q1 of 2021.
However, the year has not been all doom and gloom for those with reader revenue streams. The Times signed up an average of 1,000 new digital subscribers every day over the first two weeks of Russia's attack on Ukraine, demonstrating the demand is still strong for authoritative news and analysis. Similarly, members of the AOP have collectively reported 14.9% growth in subscriptions revenue this year.
Crucially, the pressure is helping publishers innovate. Some are looking to mixed revenue models, using registration data to both better convert readers as well as serve more valuable ads. Others are looking to more inclusive schemes to build relationships with those who aren't ready or willing to pay for a subscription.
If the past two years has seen a rush to subscriptions, 2022 has seen the start of a shake-out, but one which we are confident the best publishers will emerge from with stronger, more resilient strategies. To discuss this year's subscription trends, we're joined by Anthony Ribeiro, Audience Conversion Consultant at Poool. He has a strong background in outbound acquisition, content marketing and SEO for both brands and media companies.
This topic will be one of the chapters we explore in detail as part of our Media Moments 2022 report, launching on November 30th. Find out more and pre-register here to receive the report.
This season of Media Voices is sponsored by Poool, the Membership and Subscription Suite used by over 120 publishers from around the world. The team behind Poool are industry experts who have put everything they know into the product, ready to respond to your ‘how’ of launching & developing a reader revenue strategy.
Monday Oct 10, 2022
Has local news justified its own survival? Media Moments 2022
Monday Oct 10, 2022
Monday Oct 10, 2022
For our latest season of the Media Voices Podcast, kindly sponsored by Poool, we’re be publishing ten episodes exploring the biggest trends of 2022 and how they affect publishers; from subscriptions and membership to advertising, platforms, emerging technology and more. Our third episode explores how the local news market has evolved over the past 12 months, from start-ups showing early signs of sustainability, to the struggles of more established publishers.
After decades of managed decline, the past few years has seen a sea of local news start-ups rising to fill the gaps left by the once-dominant legacy publishers. In the US, publishers like Axios and 6AM City are using lean, MVP models to launch local news outlets with just a few reporters and a newsletter. Many others are using increasingly-available digital tools to set up websites, podcasts, membership schemes and newsletters to support a local news operation with minimal investment.
In Europe, established news organisations are launching new online local services, hiring journalists to fill the gaps in their own 'news deserts'. In the UK, start-ups like The Manchester Mill have established a blueprint that works for them and are expanding into other areas, without needing tens of thousands of subscribers. Meanwhile in Finland, 39% of those who pay for news say they are paying for regional or local news online - higher than in many other markets.
However, that doesn't mean the route to becoming a sustainable local news organisation is straightforward. To discuss the state of local news, we're joined this episode by Chris Jansen, Head of Local News, Global Partnerships at Google. Chris started his career in local radio news, and learned some lessons early on about how hard it is to do original reporting on a local level, especially for small businesses. Now, he leads the Google News Initiative's local news efforts, helping publishers with best practices and business tools to succeed in the digital world.
This topic will be one of the chapters we explore in detail as part of our Media Moments 2022 report, launching on November 30th. Find out more and pre-register here to receive the report.
This season of Media Voices is sponsored by Poool, the Membership and Subscription Suite used by over 120 publishers from around the world. The team behind Poool are industry experts who have put everything they know into the product, ready to respond to your ‘how’ of launching & developing a reader revenue strategy.
Monday Oct 03, 2022
Monday Oct 03, 2022
For our latest season of the Media Voices Podcast, kindly sponsored by Poool, we’re be publishing ten episodes exploring the biggest trends of 2022 and how they affect publishers; from subscriptions and membership to local news, platforms, emerging technology and more. Our second episode explores how the advertising market has had its post-pandemic recovery dented by economic uncertainty, and how publishers, platforms and brands are adapting.
The advertising market has been on a rollercoaster ride over the past 12 months. Initial hopes of a more stable year to continue rebuilding from the pandemic were dashed as Russia began its invasion of Ukraine, exacerbating global economic pressures. Digital advertising growth this year has slowed – unsurprising given its unsustainable growth during Covid – but has still been growing at a much faster pace than other platforms across most segments. It is expected to account for 67% of global ad spend by the end of 2022.
The outlook is mixed. The cost of living crisis is likely to force households to drastically cut back on spending. However, the World Cup is forecast to keep growth at 8.4% this year, and although the 6.4% global forecast for 2023 is lower, it is still nonetheless positive.
To discuss this year’s advertising trends and what they mean for publishers going into 2023, we’re joined by Lara O’Reilly, senior correspondent at Insider (formerly known as Business Insider). Lara has covered the media and advertising industries at publications including the Wall Street Journal, Digiday, and Marketing Week for more than a decade.
This topic will be one of the chapters we explore in detail as part of our Media Moments 2022 report, launching on November 30th. Find out more and pre-register here to receive the report.
This season of Media Voices is sponsored by Poool, the Membership and Subscription Suite used by over 120 publishers from around the world. The team behind Poool are industry experts who have put everything they know into the product, ready to respond to your ‘how’ of launching & developing a reader revenue strategy.
Monday Sep 26, 2022
Monday Sep 26, 2022
For this next season of the Media Voices Podcast, kindly sponsored by Poool, we’ll be publishing ten episodes exploring the biggest trends of 2022 and how they affect publishers; from subscriptions and membership to local news, platforms, emerging technology and more. This first episode explores how key moments in broadcast, streaming and TV have shaped the media landscape this year.
2022 saw streaming overtake cable in the US, key talent leaving established media brands like CNN and the BBC, and subscription services come under pressure as consumer budgets begin to tighten. Some studios are launching ad-supported tiers to offer a cheaper option, while others consider ‘rundles’ – recurring revenue bundles.
The year has also seen big potential changes on the horizon for UK broadcasters. Channel 4 and the BBC have been through the wringer this year, with endless back-and-forth on the future of the licence fee and potential privatisation. New News UK station TalkTV has struggled to establish itself alongside rival GB News, despite heavy investment in production and talent.
To discuss these trends and what they mean for publishers, we’re joined by Charlotte Henry, a British journalist covering media, technology, culture and politics. She’s behind The Addition newsletter and podcast, which publishes investigations, news and opinion on everything from Web3 explainers to broadcast trends. She was previously the UK Associate Editor of The MacObserver, and has written a book – Not Buying It – on the facts behind fake news.
This season of Media Voices is sponsored by Poool, the Membership and Subscription Suite used by leading publishers like Future, Euronews, Elle Magazine France, Harvard Business Review and others from around the world. Their all-in-one platform helps publishers convert, manage and retain their members and subscribers.
Wednesday Aug 31, 2022
Preview: The Publisher Podcast Summit 2022
Wednesday Aug 31, 2022
Wednesday Aug 31, 2022
While we’ve been on our summer break from the podcast, we’ve been hard at work putting together the Publisher Podcast Summit; the first ever conference dedicated to supporting publishers on their podcasting journey. It’s being held at Proud Cabaret City in London – the same venue as the Publisher Podcast Awards – on October 5th 2022.
The Summit will cover four key themes: editorial, marketing, sound & production, and monetisation. There will also be a series of expert-led roundtables in the afternoon covering a variety of topics, from how to get started with subscriber-only podcasts, to advanced microphone and equipment techniques.
The Publisher Podcast Summit is designed for publishers of all shapes and sizes, whether you’re contemplating launching your first podcast, or have a whole stable and want to know how to take your strategy to the next level. We’ve also got team tickets to make it affordable to bring more people – this isn’t one of those stuffy conferences reserved for just senior executives. We believe change happens when people at all levels feel empowered to learn, so we want you to bring along the people who will be driving podcasts.
In this teaser episode, Chris, Peter and Esther discuss their plans for the day, and which sessions they’re most looking forward to.
If you’d like to join us at the Publisher Podcast Summit, you can use the code POD20 for 20% off all ticket types. A big thanks to the Summit’s sponsors: Bababam, Megaphone by Spotify, and Shure for their support.
The Media Voices podcast will be back on September 26th with a new season featuring deep dives into some of the year’s biggest media moments.
Monday Jul 25, 2022
Monday Jul 25, 2022
In our final episode of the season, we hear from Medium's VP of Content Scott Lamb. Scott leads the content and creator relations teams at the platform, so we talked about Medium's famous pivots, the importance of putting creators at the core, competing with Substack, and Ev Williams' departure.
In the news round-up, Chris, Peter and Esther debate whether MEL magazine was closed (for the second time in a year) without being given enough of a chance, or whether it was always an awkward fit in Recurrent Ventures' portfolio. In the news in brief, we look at a good Medium post-mortem from Simon Owens, and bring in some good news with the Guardian Media Group recording its strongest financial result in 14 years. Esther scrabbles for a contribution after a week off and settles for the news that there's been a 300% increase in boob size on comic book cover art in the last few decades.
Monday Jul 18, 2022
PPA CEO Sajeeda Merali on supporting publishers in a changing industry
Monday Jul 18, 2022
Monday Jul 18, 2022
This week we hear from Sajeeda Merali, CEO of the Professional Publishers Association (PPA). We talked about what her publishing background brings to the organisation, what’s top-of-mind for the publishers the association represents as the effects of the pandemic rumble on, and what defines a magazine publisher today.
In the news round-up we discuss The Atlantic making 165 years worth of its journalism available online, and which other publishers are making good use of their archives. For the news in brief, we explore a dubious business move from Google, Conde Nast's print magazine success, and The Information's new social network.
Monday Jul 11, 2022
RocaNews CEO Max Towey on rebuilding the younger generation’s trust in news
Monday Jul 11, 2022
Monday Jul 11, 2022
This week we hear from Max Towey, Co-Founder and CEO at RocaNews. Roca is a start-up building a community around the news that lowers the blood pressure; they believe alarmist and partisan coverage has been responsible for much of the news avoidance we're seeing today. Towey tells us how Roca is aiming for balanced and informative coverage of just a few stories a day, and are hoping to rebuild the younger generation's trust in news. He also explains how they built up over 1 million followers on Instagram, why an email newsletter is one of their most successful products, and why it's so important to lower the temperature around political discourse.
In the news roundup the team asks whether hyperpartisanship is making its way across the Atlantic, based on a (very scary) report about a universal drop in trust in US news media. In the news in brief, we look at whether Europe is working smarter not harder when it comes to the podcasting industry; why has the Guardian hopped into bed with Google for funding; and discuss the latest bid for attention from manchild Elon Musk around Twitter.
Monday Jul 04, 2022
Monday Jul 04, 2022
On this week's episode we hear from Lance Johnson, CEO of Recurrent Media. You might not have heard of them (yet), but you will have heard of their brands - Donut, Domino, Saveur, Popular Science, and most recently, MEL magazine. He tells us about the group’s acquisition strategy, how they’re different from the usual VC companies we encounter, and what you need to do to get bought by Recurrent.
In the news roundup the team does some digging into the disappearing Times story about Boris Johnson offering his then-mistress a job. We take a look at the timeline, the 'legal issues' that might have caused the story to be pulled, and asked what The Times' strategy of silence is doing to its reputation and trust in the media. In the NIBs we discuss Substack cutting its headcount, say goodbye to the print edition of Time Out, and ask why Bonnier News and Amedia are launching a digital newspaper in Russia.
Read our letter to find out about how you can help us during this make-or-break year.
Thursday Jun 23, 2022
Media Voices at Cannes 2022: Day 2
Thursday Jun 23, 2022
Thursday Jun 23, 2022
This week, Media Voices co-host Peter Houston is at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity in France. He catches up with attendees at the festival to find out what publishers and agencies are talking about this summer, and how optimistic they are about the next few years.
This is the second of a two-part podcast from the Festival; the first centred on the publisher perspective. Media Voices at Cannes 2022 is sponsored by Sovrn, a leading publisher technology platform.
Day 2: Cookies and clean rooms are front-of-mind
Hear from James Prudhomme, CRO at Optable, Jessica Jacobs, Global Director of Partnerships & Growth at Incubeta, Barry Adams, EVP of AdTech at IPONWEB, Matthew Papa, SVP of Business and Corporate Development at Captify, and Jonnie Moyes, Director of Buyer Development at Sovrn. They all explain what the pressing challenges and opportunities everyone is talking about at Cannes.
These episodes are made possible by the support of our sponsors Sovrn. Sovrn provides advertising tools, technologies and services to tens of thousands of content creators, helping them make money, grow their businesses, and access a massive data commons that provides extraordinary insights.
Learn more on their website, Sovrn.com, or follow them on LinkedIn and Twitter for more updates.
Wednesday Jun 22, 2022
Media Voices at Cannes 2022: Day 1
Wednesday Jun 22, 2022
Wednesday Jun 22, 2022
This week, Media Voices co-host Peter Houston is at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity in France. He catches up with attendees at the festival to find out what publishers and agencies are talking about this summer, and how optimistic they are about the next few years.
This is a two-part podcast, with the second part going live tomorrow with fresh updates from Cannes. Media Voices at Cannes 2022 is sponsored by Sovrn, a leading publisher technology platform.
Day 1: Data and diversity top the agenda
Hear from James Florence, Head of Advertising Technology at Immediate Media, Brian Morrissey, Founder of The Rebooting newsletter and podcast, and Dominic Perkins, Managing Director of UK and Europe at Sovrn as they give their impressions of Cannes so far.
These episodes are made possible by the support of our sponsors Sovrn. Sovrn provides advertising tools, technologies and services to tens of thousands of content creators, helping them make money, grow their businesses, and access a massive data commons that provides extraordinary insights.
Learn more on their website, Sovrn.com, or follow them on LinkedIn and Twitter for more updates.
Monday Jun 20, 2022
Special: Key findings from the Reuters Institute’s Digital News Report 2022
Monday Jun 20, 2022
Monday Jun 20, 2022
In this special episode of Media Voices, Chris, Peter and Esther comb through the Reuters Institute’s Digital News Report 2022 to pick out the key findings for publishers. This year’s report reveals new insights about digital news consumption based on a YouGov survey of over 93,000 online news consumers in 46 markets covering half of the world’s population.
Listen now to explore why news avoidance is up and trust is down; the relief we felt that climate coverage is on top of everyone's agenda; how the news habits of younger generations are growing more distinct; and what the report's first ever chapter dedicated to email newsletters had to say.
See the full shownotes at https://voices.media/special-key-findings-from-the-reuters-institutes-digital-news-report-2022
Wednesday Jun 15, 2022
Conversations: Unlocking the benefits of software systems consolidation
Wednesday Jun 15, 2022
Wednesday Jun 15, 2022
Publishing is way behind other industries when it comes to technology consolidation. Compared with five or six key software platforms in most sectors, it is not uncommon to see publishers running their businesses on 50 or 60 separate set ups.
There are clear advantages in leaving this ‘Tech Soup’ behind and migrating to a unified technology platform. For this special Conversations episode, we’re joined by Markus Karlsson, CEO of Affino, the Unified Business Platform for media, publishing and membership organisations, and Steve Hinds, Digital Editor and Product Manager at leading travel news industry site TTG Media.
We discuss the benefits of systems consolidation, from improved operational efficiency to increased profitability, as well as exploring some of the challenges publishers face when looking to consolidate, and how they can get the process started.
This Conversations episode is sponsored by Affino. Founded 2009, Affino is the leading Unified Business Platform for media, publishing, events, membership and professional services organisations. The Affino SaaS Platform provides a complete solution for engaging with and monetising audiences. It combines full-range Audience CRM with Sales and Marketing Automation, Ecommerce, Subscriptions and Memberships, Messaging, CMS, Events, Ad Serving, and Recruitment. Affino streamlines organisations for more efficiency, cost-effectiveness, and productivity, as well as delivering numerous new and unique revenue stream capabilities. The fully GDPR-compliant system is built on the principles of Actionable Intelligence – prompting and triggering intuitive rapid responses based on fully accurate and comprehensive first-hand real-time data.
Learn more about Affino on their website, or contact Markus on engage@affino.com.
Monday Jun 13, 2022
Monday Jun 13, 2022
This week we catch up with Neal Freyman, managing editor at Morning Brew. Since 2017 he’s been part of the team that’s proved the viability of newsletters as a source of both advertising and audience revenue - and which was ahead of the curve when it comes to the importance of newsletters to a publishers’ wider strategy. We hear about what’s changed in the newsletter ecosystem this time, what the rise of the individual journalist-led newsletter means for creators, and what new verticals he wants to launch newsletters in.
In the news roundup the team discuss the Mail's latest (poorly-researched) salvo in its war against Google, and ask what the ramifications are for the wider public. In the NIBs we talk about the sad closure of a beloved newsletter, ask whether podcasts are a replacement for magazines, and talk about the future of events for publishers. Peter calls Brian Morrissey "a very handsome man".
Wednesday Jun 08, 2022
Media Voices at FIPP Congress 2022: Rebuilding from Covid
Wednesday Jun 08, 2022
Wednesday Jun 08, 2022
Media Voices co-host Peter Houston has jetted off to Cascais, Portugal for the 2022 FIPP World Media Congress. He catches up with speakers and attendees at the event to find out what they're hoping to learn, what it's like being back in the room, and how optimistic they are for the future of publishing.
In this episode we bring you highlights from FIPP CEO James Hewes' keynote speech, Professor Lucy Küng drawing out practical lessons from her research into digital transformation, Fortune's Jim Jacovides explaining how Covid made the publisher more flexible, Tortoise's Katie Vanneck-Smith outlining how they are doubling down on audience engagement, Pugpig's Jonny Kaldor sharing the optimism in the room, and Boom Saloon's Rachel Arthur setting out what the big and small publishers can learn from each other.
Monday Jun 06, 2022
Raconteur Editor Sarah Vizard on using print to drive digital expansion
Monday Jun 06, 2022
Monday Jun 06, 2022
This week we talk to Sarah Vizard, Editor of Raconteur. She explained what Raconteur's unique angle on business stories is in a crowded field, how it uses its print publication to drive digital expansion, and what their recently launched New Voices programme hopes to do with giving writers from under-represented backgrounds a start in business journalism.
In the news roundup the team asks if Dotdash Meredith's approach to cutting back on print is more honest than Condé Nast's - or whether it is just an attempt at massaging the truth around print decline. In the news in brief we talk about payment models for newspapers that allow people on lower incomes access to news; the impact of going online-only on broadcast channels; and the good news that podcast revenue is growing significantly! Become a Media Voices supporter over at voices.media/support.
Monday May 30, 2022
Monday May 30, 2022
This episode we hear from Bhanupriya Rao, Founder at BehanBox, an Indian publication whose mission is to centre voices of women and gender diverse people through evidence and data-driven reporting. We spoke about the inequalities in access to media in India, how BehanBox hopes to make real changes for women and gender diverse people, and why data is so important in their reporting.
In the news round-up, the team discuss a collection of stories about access and representation in the media, from the 'posh news for posh people' outlook at some publications to the absence of working class voices in news media. In the news in brief section, we look at what makes a company a magazine company, Playboy's push for influencers, and cost-cutting at the BBC.
Monday May 23, 2022
Monday May 23, 2022
This week we hear from Charlotte Cijffers, Digital Director at Rolling Stone UK & Attitude Magazine for Stream Publishing. We spoke about launching the iconic Rolling Stone title in the UK, her work on Attitude's digital transformation, and the benefits of developing more localised content for magazines. She also gives advice on what publishers should focus on when looking to grow their own audiences online.
In the news roundup we discuss the various reactions to TalkTV's tumbling ratings, and ask whether the British public is rejecting hyper-partisan news in general... or just finding it elsewhere. In the news in brief we discuss whether newspapers are normalising climate change, highlight The Economist's exceptional success with its podcasts, and hear some heartening news that diversity and representation are no longer just buzzwords in publishing.